At age sixteen, guitarist Andy Corpus, vocalist Adam Jackson and their troop of Dayton-based metal-heads were preparing their first demos and playing every basement show they could get their hands on. Over six years later, they are taking unsolicited advice from sixteen-year-olds on what labels they should sign to, and on how they can "make it big." The irony is that this scenario, though audacious, is probably a closer mindset to how independent music is operated today than most would like to admit.

In the mid-nineties hardcore mainstays like Sick Of It All and Earth Crisis played to capacity club crowds. Smaller regional bands struggled to gain momentum by playing basement, all-ages Veterans' hall shows, week-long tours, and to sell a couple hundred records (and if they were lucky these digits would quadruple) on a small independent hardcore label.

Today, it isn't uncommon to see young Trustkill and Victory Records bands headlining their own sold-out club tours, while longtime hardcore Veterans like Avail support, selling tens-of-thousands of records, and earning a spot on MTVs Total Request Live. Where does a band like Twelve Tribes, who have probably seen more broken down vans and nasty independent show promoters in the last six years than most of the afore mentioned hardcore freshman will encounter in a lifetime, fit in?

Though Corpus and Jackson admit that they've weighed current trends against their own future goals and perceived accomplishments, Twelve Tribes has come to a conclusion. They'd rather hone their songwriting and deliver a record with some brevity on their own time for the right reasons than hastily ink a deal, crank out a record that they aren't happy with for the wrong reasons.

While their friends flirt with summer plans to support Ozzfest, and welcome MTV Cribs camera crews, Twelve Tribes toil away at their craft. Only time will tell whether the tortoise or the hare finish first.

Bettawreckonize caught up with Corpus and Jackson to discuss the current state of hardcore, their inspirations and aspirations, and lessons learned.

Interview conducted in person by Tim Anderl. Pictures provided by Twelve Tribes.

Names: Adam Jackson (vocals), Andy Corpus (guitar)
Band: Twelve Tribes

Bettawreckonize: I just wanted to double-check who the current line up for Twelve Tribes is and whether there have been any changes.

Andy: Me, guitar; Adam, vocals; Matt Tackett, bass; Kevin Schindel, guitar; and Shane Shook plays drums. He is the new drummer.

BW: When did he start playing with you guys?

Andy: He started playing with us in the end of August.

BW: There have been a lot of line-up changes with Twelve Tribes, and I think you see that a lot with most hardcore bands. Why do you think that is?

Andy: The turn-over rate in hardcore is pretty big. First kids are into it, then they aren't. They go from hardcore bands, to emo, to rock, to black metal

Adam: I think the popularity of certain styles of music is mainly what pulls people away from bands.

BW: You guys had two releases before the first Eulogy record, As Feathers To Flowers and Petals To Wings. What were those release and who recorded them?

Andy: It was 1997 (laughter). It was me, Adam, Matt Tacket on guitar.…

Adam: Kevin Schindel.

Andy: Jason Thompson played bass. Jason plays in Waking Kills The Dream now. Danny actually played on that first demo. We recorded it in Chris Commons' old studio in the basement of his dad's house. It was really bad. If anyone ever gets that….

Adam: It was a six-song, self-titled demo.

Andy: We were really young, like 16 or 17. Matt was 13 or 14. Yeah, we were really young. We actually recorded another one after that that we never put out and Kevin who plays guitar for us now was playing drums. Then we put out the two-song demo with Alex Vernon and Steve Brooks and we recorded that.

Adam: That was when we really got serious I think. That demo was called Two Cleft-Tongues and that was really what got us hooked up with Eulogy Recordings. We recorded that demo and sent it to him.

Andy: Not true. We recorded the one with Kevin Schindel….

Adam: And we sent it to him, but we had a line-up change….

BW: Did the guy who runs Eulogy have to hear a lot of material before he really got serious about you guys?

Adam: He was in Morning Again at the time so we had played in front of him a couple of times before we got signed. I think it was a matter of playing in front of him that really got him interested, and then hearing the stuff recorded got him talking to us.

Andy: Kevin Byers (Morning Again, Waking Kills The Dream) did a lot. We knew Kevin and he was hyping us up to John a lot before he saw us. We played a show with Morning Again, and we played really bad actually, we were terrible, but he'd heard enough. He'd heard the two-song demo before the one that we did with Alex and Steve. He was just really cool. He came to our practice the next day in the basement of my parents' house.

Adam: That was weird.

Andy: Then ofcourse it took forever because after we started talking to him we had more lineup changes and had to record and rerecord so it took a while. Contract wise, it wasn't like we "signed" to Eulogy. It was more like he said, "Hey, I'd like to put out your record." We said, "Cool." He said "I'll press X amount." We said, "O.K." I mean we were 17 or 18 at the time.

Adam: Things have really changed since then.

BW: Do you see more of an emphasis on the business-end of hardcore nowadays? It seems like most bands now are really conscious of how many records they are pressing, who they sign to, what booking agent they are going through, and what their guarantees are. You are absolutely right, back in the mid-nineties, hardcore was totally different. People played basement shows, put out demo tapes like you did….

Andy: Yeah, cassette tapes. When was the last time you saw an honest-to-god demo tape. Things have totally changed. I could go on about that later.

BW: Is having to be business minded making it tougher for you guys to make music?

Adam: You are definitely a little more conscious of where you are playing shows and who you are playing in front of….not necessarily the music that we are writing, but I can see it affecting other music that is out there. Music that bands are playing now is definitely geared towards what is going to sell. It didn't used to be like that.

Andy: We had no idea that things were going to be like this….

Adam: We saw it happening, but….

Andy: Not to the extent it is now. Back then if you saw 400 kids at a show that was huge. I guess in some ways it is good. Bands are selling 40, 50, 60, 100,000 records, which is great for bands. But, back when we started selling records and going out on tour we could book shows with no experience at all and be able to play. It was no problem and some of those shows were really good. Now that hardcore has become more business oriented, it makes it a lot harder for us and especially for new bands starting out. You have to have the right credentials and know this person or that person. If we had started this now, we wouldn't have been able to do anything.

Adam: That is why I think a lot of bands are taking the route they are. Hardcore is becoming that manufactured sound and I think that is why bands are going that route - it is the only way to get in. You can't do something creative because it just won't be accepted.

Andy: I think it sucks because that isn't what hardcore is. Not to get all preachy about hardcore, but we wouldn't have the opportunity to do this. And a lot of the bands that are big now owe a lot to the small, local promoters. The big guys wouldn't be paying attention if it weren't for them. Now, bands are just cutting out the whole ground level of hardcore.

Adam: It goes in cycles too though. Back when we were getting into hardcore, Vision of Disorder and Earth Crisis were getting signed to bigger labels, not to the extent that bands are getting signed to major labels now. But, I think it will go back to the way it was before and then it will get popular again. I guess that's just how it will always be.

BW: Who was As Feathers To Flowers And Petals To Wings recorded with and how long did that process take?

Adam: It was mid 1999 and we recorded at Cro-mag Studios in Dayton, Ohio. We spent a span of one or two months doing the recording because we had to pay for it ourselves. We signed a deal on a handshake with Eulogy, but it was like "Hey, pay for your record and I'll press it." That was how generic it was. So, in order to have the money we'd need to record something we'd go and like record drums and pay for it up front, come back a week later when we have more money and lay down guitars, come back and lay down vocals when I had money to pay for my time. It was that kind of deal.

BW: That record was unlike anything I was hearing in hardcore at the time. It stood out as a more earthy and raw style of hardcore, which really contrasted with the chugga-chugga stuff that was coming out at that time. One of the things that stands out on that record to me is the drum cadence on "Mr. Bear." Was that spontaneous or planned out?

Adam: We had sort of talked about it and when we got to the studio we talked about it a little bit more. It was pretty spontaneous. We actually recorded three different versions of it and it was all improvised. It was Alex Vernon, our drummer at the time, Dave Mann, who became our drummer on instruments, and the drummer from Rune. It was cool. It depends how you look at it. Some people think it is whack, like Andy, but it was cool. We turned down the lights and they all had a kick drum and a tom and just went at it. They seriously probably recorded for an hour and then we just took eight minutes of that, the best of it, for the track. I thought it was an awesome thing to have happen.

Andy: It was awesome, but it was also sort of half-assed. We could have done it so much cooler, but it was good for what it was I guess.

Adam: A lot of that came from our drummer at the time. He was totally out of left-field. The ideas that he brought to the music that we were writing were really original. He was just one of those drummers with a lot of raw talent and natural ability. He came up with ideas that were really innovative.

Andy: He also really pushed us. The things we would've written with another drummer would've made the record totally different. He shifted us into another gear. At the time we were into Morning Again and Bloodlet….

Adam: Cave-In….

Andy: Cave-In wasn't really around back then. Culture, metal and he was open to a lot of stuff. We was into a lot of off-time stuff like Meshuggah, Deadguy and that kind of stuff. Today is the Day, that was his band.

Adam: That record really came together because of the differences between each member of the band. The chugga-chugga stuff was really Andy's influence, the more creative stuff was more Alex and Steve. The way that record came out was totally like it just happened. I don't really think you can plan that kind of stuff.

BW: Now there was also a girl that sang a little back up on that record. Who was that?

Adam: Here name was Lashanta. She is now a pregnant stripper somewhere.

BW: How your working with her come about?

Adam: I had an idea for a girl to sing on our record for a long time and Jason knew a girl from school and he was like, "Hey, try her out." So I called her on the phone and said, "Hey, sing me something over the phone if you want to be on our record," and she did. I was impressed so I asked her to come to the studio. I had an idea about what I wanted her to do and we talked about it. She gave it a couple trial runs and I think she worked out pretty good.

BW: Next was the Instruments E.P.? What was the idea behind that? Why was it an E.P. and not a full-length? Did you not have enough material at the time….

Andy: Good question. We wanted to go on tour in the summertime, and we had a certain number of songs written, and John Wiley's other band, it was something else, but it later became Until the End had some studio time booked in April. We wanted to have something out by the summertime so we decided to write two or three more songs, work on that Faith No More cover, which we had been talking about, and it just worked out so we did it.

Adam: E.P.s are weird. They can either have a lot of impact or they can leave you hanging. What we were trying to do was leave a good impact and to prepare people for our next record, which was supposed to be soon to come. I sort of feel like now we've probably left people hanging.

BW: Did you ask permission from anybody to do "Surprise You're Dead?"

Adam: Yeah, we had to pay two million dollars directly to Mike Patton (laughter).

Andy: We didn't list it as a track so I don't think anyone really cared. It is in the in-lay but….

Adam: If you aren't selling a certain amount of records I think they probably don't see the point of coming after you.

BW: With Mike Patton being involved in hardcore do you know if he's heard the song?

Adam: I know Glassjaw has heard it and they know those guys so it is possible he's heard it.

Andy: He's never heard it before. (laughter)

Adam: Shut up man, I'm trying to make it sound cool. He could have heard it.

BW: Jeff, who did the back up on "Surprise You're Dead" is the singer from Poison The Well, right?

Adam: He did backup on the second track of the CD.

Andy: That was all of Poison The Well doing backup on "Surprise You're Dead."

Adam: That was Dave too, our drummer. He did the death metal stuff. The verses are me, the chanting is all of Twelve Tribes and Poison The Well, and there are some death metal growls in there that were Dave, our drummer. He had the long hair so it was fitting. (laughter)

BW: So you guys are friends with those guys from being on tour together?

Adam: Our first three tours were with those guys.

Andy: The first time we ever went on tour was the first time that they had been out on tour. That was in 99.

Adam: The first time we went we did a week with them, then we did a month with them and then we did a summer with them. We just became really good friends with them, and still are even though we've switched tons of members and they've switched tons of members.

BW: There was some talk for a little while about you guys doing a split record with Poison The Well. What ever happened with that?

Andy: (laughter) The gist of it is that they got in a big argument….I hope this isn't bad to say. They got in a fight and kicked out somebody. The whole point of that record was that we had just done this whole summer tour….in between that tour I went down to Florida and lived with their guitar player….it was just the best time of our life. We switched up members, and it was just like one big band. We went home and bands started fighting, kicking people out, shitting talking and the whole point of it was that we'd just had this amazing summer….

Adam: And we just want to put out this record to share this amazing experience with everyone else. That is what split records are; two bands who really appreciate each others' music doing something together.

Andy: After that there were just all these hard feelings and it is hard not to get involved when you are best friends with the people in the bands. So we just kind of scrapped it.

Adam: Then there was this whole thing where they were going to do it with another band, on another label.

Andy: It just turned into something sort of nasty so we scrapped it.

Adam: It would've been rad though. We were actually going to do a song and a cover each and we had our song ready to go and they did too. Their song is actually on Tear From The Red. Then they were going to do a Smashing Pumpkins cover and we were going to do a Red Hot Chili Peppers cover.

BW: Rather than staying with Eulogy then, you are out shopping your new demo songs right? What is the situation with that?

Adam: We are just trying to do something new.

Andy: We get that question a lot. That is really all people ask about. I've got 17-year-old kids on the internet giving me advice about record labels and asking about it - seems like it is all anyone cares about. We are just going to write a record. We sent those three songs out to people to get an idea about where we stand and what we were doing. It was pretty informal.

Adam: It was really just for our own benefit of knowing where we are.

Andy: When we are done writing the record we will record it with the money we've saved and we'll send it out. We are taking our time. If you worry too much about who is going to put it out, then I think you lose a lot of the reason behind doing it in the first place. It is too much pressure. Obviously you want to be smart from a business end, that is all necessary, but you don't want to rush and write a record just because you want it to come out on Trustkill records. You need to be creative, you need to take your time.

Adam: And it's not like there are any hard-feelings with Eulogy or whatever. We just decided to do something different.

Andy: From the get-go with them it was sort of like, "Hey let's do this record." And then we were doing the next one with him, and after that it was just time to move on.

BW: On the three song demo that you guys have been selling most recently at your shows there is more of a emphasis on back up vocals, which are sung, and your vocals are more syncopated and percussive than they have been on either of the other records. First, who is doing the backup vocals?

Adam: First, for these three songs we have new members. Kevin Schindel who plays guitars for us and writes a lot of the music is doing a lot of vocals. When we sit down, we write the music together, we come up with a lot of the patterns together. While I write the lyrics, I like input. I want to be carefully not to fuck it up when he rips a guitar parts by laying down something totally random over them. You come together and sometimes you just have ideas like, "Hey wouldn't it be cool if you were doing something like this?"

Andy: He's been in bands before like that Corkscrew band and he just has a good voice. His scream is awesome.

Adam: And contrasting voices is fun, it's just like picking up another instrument or adding another element.

BW: Now with the addition of you vocals and their more percussive nature….where is that coming from? Is that hip-hop influenced or what are your influences for your style?

Andy: I think one of the reasons that is happening is because of the direction of our other CDs. It would have been hard to do that with the old CDs because the songs were cutting all over the place and were too wild. I think on the old records you could hear a little bit of Adam's style, especially with the Faith No More cover. There have been a couple of other parts too. We've always wanted to do that and to let Adam have that style but the music was too out of control and off the wall….

Adam: My influences definitely stem from hip-hop and other types of rock and roll and hardcore, everything really. The rapping stuff I do, or the really rhythm oriented stuff I do comes from hip-hop, but I don't know. I can't tell you that I listened to this one record and then layed down this thing. It isn't like that. The kind of person I am and the vibe I get is just a lot different than a lot of kids in hardcore who grew up specifically on hardcore or metal. What we are trying to do is a little bit different.

Andy: That is one of the things that stands out about our band. Three of us grew up on hip-hop. I listened to a lot of hip-hop as a kid and so did Matt and Adam. None of us grew up listening to just hardcore, or just metal, or just rock.

BW: Do you think that Instrument was good transition from the first record to what you are doing now? Can we expect the stuff you are doing now to sound like the new demos?

Adam: I think everyone is going to be surprised. I think that if you like the demo and acknowledge that it is a little bit different or a lot bit different than the old stuff, I think that what we are getting into know is really going to be pushing it. I don't know if Instruments is such a good transition record, or a renaissance. We are just doing something totally different. We are kind of starting a new band. People who were into us before are still going to enjoy it and recognize certain elements of Twelve Tribes and the differences we have from other hardcore bands, but I think we are also broadening our sound a little bit and that kids who haven't heard us before will understand it to.

Andy: We are writing smoother music and they are just better songs. Our influences now and when we sit down to write songs they are definitely done in a more fluid way. We've talked about song writers like the Beatles and The Rolling Stones.

Adam: I hate the Rolling Stones.

Andy: Well, anything like that. It is just songwriting. And we've been maturing as songwriters.

Adam: Something we also talk about a lot is trying to do something completely new. People ask us constantly about when the record is coming out, but the hardest thing for us is continuing to excel. We don't want to sit down and write a bunch of songs and put out a record that isn't 100 percent. Writing something new and inspired is difficult.

Andy: Right, we could have had a record out a long time ago. You have no idea how many songs we've scrapped. We started some and thrown them away. We are working hard, several nights a week, and putting in tremendous hours on this. Kevin stays up all night sometimes. When we were writing the songs for the demo sometimes we'd get together on a Friday night and work until 6:00 in the morning on Saturday. It is like a new band, and it is a new thing for all of us.

Adam: And the kind of response we've been getting playing these songs out has been totally different. For one, the comparisons to other bands that we used to get are totally different than what people are hearing now. And, the way that kids are into it now is totally different. I think it is going in a good direction and that people are really getting what we are trying to do.

Andy: Before we were shutting people out because it was so new, or off the wall. Now kids are accepting it now. And we aren't writing songs were people will sit down and say, "Wow, that part was crazy or that part was cool." People are listening to it and are hearing the whole song, and appreciating the whole song. That is what we are trying to do, write songs, not just a bunch of cool parts that are strung together. Man, it feels like we are just regurgitating what we always say. We, as a band, will sit in this room and talk about the same things day after day.

BW: Adam, do you write lyrics to the music then or do you just write and see where it fits later on?

Adam: I do a little bit of both. I have some unfinished songs and unfinished material, and I just try to match up the way a song feels and sounds with the lyrics I have. Even if the first line just fits, I'll start trying to apply the lyrics to a song. Before I would write a whole song, not change anything, and make it fit. Now it is more like a collaborative effort. I'm trying to be more conscious and consistent about where I'm placing things and I'm just trying to make it a little bit smoother.

BW: What other lyricists or authors have inspired you in the past?

Adam: As far as music goes….I'm sort of at the level know where I've found my niche and I don't have to draw from other things as much as I used to. But, when I first started out I payed a lot of attention to Bloodlet, even like the RZA from Wu Tang, or bands like Overcast - anyone that was doing something a little bit different. And rap too. People like Mobb Deep….basically anyone who was doing new and innovative things. I drawn on a lot of my ideas from everyday experiences too. But my ideas about songwriting have changed. I still focus on the personal, but before I really just cared about my being able to relate to or understand what I'd written about. But now I'm sort of paying more attention to the way I can relate my ideas to others, and things that other people can possibly draw from. Personal writing that can affect individuals can inspire people to make changes in their life. And when people make positive changes the world and society change for the better. But, on the other hand, I don't really identify with people that write just political lyrics, or just straight-edge lyrics, or lyrics that are strictly a certain way. I feel like being a good person, and focusing on self will really benefit people the most. I can write a song about our president, or gun-control, or poverty but that isn't going to….

Andy: All those problems stem from individual decisions. If those people make changes in their own lives I think that is where you start really seeing a difference.

Adam: I go to some shows where kids will know every word and I go to others where kids don't know any. And they'll be like, "Dude, these lyrics are like poetry and I'm really inspired by them," but they don't know what my intentions were when I was writing them. So, just like the music we are opening the doors a little more and letting them into what we are doing.

BW: What are some of the lessons that you've learned by being in a band over the last six years?

Adam: Buy a reliable van.

Andy: We've talked about this before. If the band were to break up today, it would be the most valuable experience of my life. I kind of went to college….some people learn in an institution, you know? You go through your four years, and by the end of that time, you've learned some lessons and you are an adult. Not doing that, you learn lessons from whatever you are doing. And doing this has made me who I am. I've gotten to see the whole country several times, east coast, west coast and everything inbetween, have made the best friends that you could possible make, have learned about working with five other individuals….not just five other individuals, but all sorts of people. I've learned how to work with some of the biggest assholes, personal issues, anything, I can't even begin to describe this experience. I've been able to make my own opinions about things rather than having my opinions handed to me by a parent, or a professor, or a boss. I've seen these things and made my conclusions on my own.

Adam: Creating something yourself is also really rewarding. Creating a band, making music together, going on a tour that you've booked yourself. That is something that is self-reliant. When you make something happen and learn lessons from it, that is something that really can't be taught. That is valuable. I don't know.

Andy: The people skills you pick up along the way are incredible. You are dealing with five other people's schedules, personal issues, and you are learning to give and take musically. Besides all that you take away important lessons about business, like determining your budget. When you are out on the road that is your source of income. Sometimes I'd leave with zero dollars in my pocket, and we had to learn hard lessons about how to get along that way. With all this comes self-confidence, and networking skills, and….social skills, driving 13 hours and having some girl pay you $20 dollars for the show and trying not to strangle her (laughter). Making the most any opportunity. Being on stage and not half-assing it.

Adam: Having a positive attitude while going through the most negative shit you can imagine like being kicked out of Canada, or not making it to shows because your van breaks down in the desert, or going to jail. What the fuck, how do you keeping doing this after going through all these things? You have to remember that you have a responsibility to four other members of the band, and that you have to trust them.

BW: Who went to jail?

Adam: I did. It was for skateboarding. It was stupid though. I had to go see the judge and everything after spending the night in jail. He was a little like, "Why are you here?" and he let me go.

BW: Is that the worst thing that has ever happened?

Adam: No. Like two days after this, go ahead man….

Andy: We were out on this amazing tour with Poison The Well. Some shows were 5 or 600 kids and others were like 2 or 300. We were making money. Then the van broke down and there you go. $2000 bucks on a new transmission, three days in Arizona, and two days of driving straight home, and you have no money because you just spent it all on a blown transmission. Spent the whole summer and not a dime. Took all that time off work and nothing. Then kids ask why bands switch members.

Adam: People cannot handle that. All they see is the dead end and they can't accept that there is something out there that is worth it.

Andy: We've had our guitar player break his leg on tour. He actually got surgery while we were on the road. He toured in a cast and played in a chair. Personal issues with girlfriends. You also have to deal with financial responsibilities. You have to come home and be broke.

Adam: The worst part about being in a band is the day you drive home from tour.

Andy: Sometimes it is cool because you are home and you can sleep in your own bed. But playing music changes you. You are used to being on stage, and it is so cool. Then a couple days later you are serving bagels to some bitch….(laughter)

Mackenzie Lee (Adam's girlfriend): Why does it always have to be the bitches?
(laughter)

Andy: Come on. You know what I mean. It changes you and changes your outlook on everything.

Adam: But that stuff is hilarious now.

Andy: When we went on tour with Poison The Well we left their drummer in Detroit one time. We drove all the way home to Dayton and he was sitting in Denny's. We left him.
How do you forget someone?

Adam: He was in the bathroom taking a shit.

Andy: The whole tour we had been switching members. Someone would be like, "I want to go in Poison The Well's van," or "I want to go in Twelve Tribes' van."

Adam: He was left barefoot a Denny's. Why would you go to Denny's barefoot anyway?

BW: What are you plans then for 2003? Are you making plans or are you concentrating on writing songs and letting the rest work itself out?

Adam: My main goal is to write music, play shows and to get kids into it. Or get people back into it. As far as putting out the record, we are talking to labels. Seems like we talk to them and then we get done talking to them.

Andy: We don't know what label it is coming out on, the important thing is that we finish it. We just don't want to set limits on ourselves at this time.